Lowyat.NET: Latest topics by kmarc

[WTB] 500gb @ 640gb Hard disk

kmarc — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:41:03 +0800

Item(s): 500gb or 640gb hard disk

Package includes: HDD only

Price: Offer me

Warranty: Kindly state manufacturer warranty

Dealing method: Preferably COD unless you give cheap cheap price!!

Location of seller: Kuching

Contact method/details: COD or courier

Age of item: Please state

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Item(s) conditions: Must be 100% working, preferably with warranty

Picture: -

Reason for buying : Looking for additional storage

[WTS] Home exercise bike (RM 200) - Brand new!

kmarc — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 10:22:23 +0800

Bike reserved for RM180. Thread closed until then.

Item(s): Takasima Y-sprint TK222Z home exercise bike

Package includes: Exercise bike

Price: RM 200 firm (original retail price in receipt is RM899!)

Warranty: 1 week personal
Original receipt will not be given as I have to hold it for my threadmill.

Dealing method: COD only. Hopefully can self-collect unless I dismantle the bike (dunno whether can fit my car!!!)

Location of seller: Kuching or Sibu (From September '09 onwards)

Contact method/details: Post here or pm me

Age of item: 10 months (I think)

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Item(s) conditions:

100% brand new! Never used! This bike came free with my treadmill (bought from Takasima in Saberkas).

Plastic cover on seat not even removed. Sitting at the corner of my house gathering dust!

Picture: As below

Reason for sale: Decided to get rid of this bike as never used.

[WTS] ASUS F9S notebook (12.1 inch LCD)

kmarc — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:28:13 +0800

Item(s): ASUS F9S notebook

Package includes: Everything that came with the boxes:
Asus mouse
Power adapter
Asus (Targus) carry bag
CD driver + recovery CD
Receipt
Rams upgraded to 2Gb from original 1Gb.
Original Vista OS

Price: RM 2200 firm

- Please do not compare this with other vanilla notebooks. If you want to compare prices, should compare with notebooks that have similar specs, especially the 12.1 inch LCD and onboard dedicated graphic card (Nvidia 8400GS). Thx.

Warranty: I think it is 2 years. Can't log into ASUS website to confirm at the moment. Will update once able to log in.

Dealing method: COD only

Location of seller: Kuching

Contact method/details: Pm me or post here

Age of item: Bought in 6 October 2007
Bought from Sri Sarjana in Saberkas, Kuching.

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Item(s) conditions: Working perfectly. Probably have to reinstall Vista.... now so bloated with applications....

Picture: As below

Reason for sale: Previously bought for simple 3D gaming when I was overseas. Can play 3D games with medium settings. Wanna get a small netbook for more mobility (e.g. Acer Aspire One netbook)

Specs

* Screen: 12.1-inch screen WXGA (1280 x 800)
* Processor: 2.0 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo T7300
* Hard Drive: 160 GB hard drive (SATA, 5400RPM)
* Memory: 1 GB RAM 677 MHz DDR2 (1x1GB)—2GB Max (upgraded to 2Gb)
* Optical Drive: 8X Super-Multi DVDRW Dual Layer
* Interface: Three USB 2.0, VGA, HDMI, headphone/microphone jacks, LAN and phone jacks and one express card slot.
* Wireless: Integrated Intel 3945 ABG (Wifi + bluetooth)
* Graphics: nVidia Geforce 8400m G 128 MB dedicated
* Operating System: Windows Vista Home Premium
* Weight: 4.2 pounds with 6-cell battery.
* 1.3 mega pixel web cam located above the screen of the laptop, 240 degrees swivel function
* Fingerprint reader
* Multi-card reader (e.g. SD card, xD card)

* This notebook has HDMI out, can connect straight to LCD TV with HDMI connection.

Info from ASUS website : http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?modelmen...=64&l3=576&l4=0

Note : Doesn't include the 3G mobile network connection.

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Battery protruding out as it is a 6-cell battery. If 3-cell battery, will not protrude out. There is also a 9-cell battery... (This notebook only comes with the 6-cell battery.
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GC problem...... colorful 8800GTS 512mb

kmarc — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:06:47 +0800

So sad.... I think my GC already kaput... not too sure whether it is due to the bios or not.

When I switched on my computer this morning, this is what I get:

[attachmentid=1000336]

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Why the conflict?

I can still use my rig but windows doesn't recognise the card at all as it defaults to normal VGA mode.

When I switch to my backup GC (8400GS), the problem disappeared and everything runs as normal.

Never overclocked the card. Never touched it's bios.

Any idea?

Note : The card is already reserved for a forumer but looks like I might have to RMA it unless it is the BIOS problem....

[WTS] Fujifilm finepix F10 digital camera

kmarc — Sat, 30 May 2009 22:06:54 +0800

Item(s): Fujifilm finepix F10 (6.3 megapixel) digital camera

Package includes: Everything that came in the original box plus:
x1 xD card 512mb
x1 xD card 1gb
x1 xD card 16mb
Camera pouch x2
Tripod - full-length (free only if COD, not included if postage as too big)
Receipt

Price: RM 350 or state your offer

Warranty: 1 week personal

Dealing method: COD or postage

Location of seller: Kuching

Contact method/details: Post here or pm me

Age of item: Bought 29 May 2005

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Item(s) conditions: Working perfectly

Picture: As below

Reason for sale: Bought a new camera

Here's some review:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f10-review/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmf10zoom/

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[WTS] Colorful 8800GTS (G92) 512mb

kmarc — Fri, 29 May 2009 17:39:21 +0800

Thread reopened. GC already RMAed. Now at seller's place. Waiting for him to send it back to me.

Note : A bit busy with work nowadays. If slow reply, please forgive me.

Item(s): Colorful 8800GTS (G92) 512mb

Package includes: Everything that came with the card (will take pictures later)
- Manual
- CD driver
- DVI-Dsub adapter
- Molex-to-PCI-E adapter
- S-video to component video output (I think)

Price: Offer me

Warranty:
1 week personal
5 more months from seller (chargeable warranty remaining) - bought from storm88
- receipt available, warranty stated in receipt

Dealing method: COD or postage (COD preferable)

Location of seller: Sibu

Contact method/details: PM me or post here

Age of item: 13 months (bought on 3rd August 2008)

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Item(s) conditions:

Previously working perfectly. Already sold to a forumer but card kaput one day before sending to forumer!
RMAed the GC, now GC has arrived back at seller's place. Waiting for him to send the card back to me
Never overclocked the card (also can kaput! )

Picture: As below. The pictures were taken when I first receive the graphic card.

Reason for sale: Already using a GTX260

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LYN stock market FAQs & Guide

kmarc — Sat, 23 May 2009 21:14:27 +0800

Will be doing "Rights Issue" soon....... soon...... SOON!!!

Hi guys. After discussing with Cherroy, I have decided to do a noob guide for our stock market section. As I’m just a baby ikan bilis in stocks and I'm not in the financial field, would appreciate it if you guys could help me out.

My plan is to make it as simple as possible, and cover common issues that are FREQUENTLY asked.

Index

Part 1 - T+3
Part 2 - Dividends
Part 3 - Commissions & brokerage fees
Part 4 - Taxes and stocks/dividend
Part 5 - Warrants - The confusion, the headache and the frustration
Part 6 - Warrants - How and when to trade warrants?
Part 7 - Rights Issue

Post #5 - Trading accounts
Post #6 - Can I ask when is the best time to buy stocks or the TP for a stock?
Post #7 - etc
Post #10 and above – for noob to ask questions (including me!!!!)

Going to start off with T+3 first. Please help or give opinion. No spamming please.

Note : Let me draft out the rough outline on T+3 first then you guys can comment/help/give opinion. Thx!

FAQs for LYN stock market section

kmarc — Sun, 17 May 2009 01:07:03 +0800

Hi guys. After discussing with Cherroy, I have decided to do a noob guide for our stock market section. As I’m just a baby ikan bilis in stocks, I would need you guys to:
1) Help me out with the guide
2) Give me your opinion on whether this guide would be useful or should I just scrap it as there are so many websites/references

My plan is to make it as simple as possible, and cover common issues that are FREQUENTLY asked. Example of the guide:

Post #0 - Index
Post #1 - Simple guide on trading accounts (added)
Post #2 - T+3
Post #3 – Dividends/ex-date/entitlement date
Post #4 - Taxes and stocks/dividend
Post #5 - Can I ask when is the best time to buy stocks or the TP for a stock?
Post #6 - etc.
Post #10 and above – for noob to ask questions (including me!!!!)

Going to start off with T+3 first. Please help or give opinion. No spamming please.

Note : Let me draft out the rough outline on T+3 first then you guys can comment/help/give opinion. Thx!

LYN featured in "The Edge"

kmarc — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 08:20:04 +0800

Just to inform that LYN was featured in "The Edge Malaysia" Magazine (March 2-8 2009 edition). It was in a pullout entitled "Malaysian websites that we like" where they could only find 65 good websites in Malaysia. They tried to find 88 websites but couldn't do so.

Nice to see LYN getting recognized!

[WTS] Honda Civic Ferio EG8 (93/99) VTEC

kmarc — Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:15:33 +0800

Item(s):Honda Civic Ferio EG8 (Black) Auto 1.5L (Vi)
- Fuel injection VTEC engine (engine supposedly better than the local version??? 130 hp. That's what people say.... I'm no expert)
- Car of the year
- Repainted to black
- Accident x1, damaged front hood only
- 144,000 km

Package includes: Modified/additional stuff:
Sport Rims (16 inch)
Tyre - 16 inch Falken Azenis (205/45/16)
Sports muffler
Lotusking 10mm High performance plug cable (HPPC)
NGK IX7 Iridium spark plugs
Heat-wrapped sports header (see picture)
Voltage stabilizer
Ground wires
Magnetic fuel saver (I know, it doesn't work )
Sony Xplod Stereo/MP3 player (with remote)
Dry battery (Roadmaster, just changed March 2008)
Silicon wipers - lifetime warranty! (Bought in KL)

Extra features:
- Retractable door mirrors
- Electronic seat adjusting for driver seat
- Car compartment lined with sound absorber material (all 4 doors, floor and even the hand brake compartment) - did it myself....

Price: 17k (firm)

Dealing method: Should be cash kua..... COD only.

Location of seller: Kuching

Contact method/details: PM me or post here

Age of item: Manufactured 1993, recond from Japan to Malaysia in 1999

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Item(s) conditions: Minor defects:
- Right rear door handle replaced but different colour (blue!)
- Hood slightly difficult to close (after repairs and replacement of a new hood)
- paint defect at left door mirror (damaged by the guy who polish my car!)
- scratches on the sport rims
- alarm almost kaput. No sound but can still lock with remote. If thief break in also no sound.....
- Glove compartment handle defect
- Window sprayer damaged (but can be easily changed)

Note : I have been sending my car to the Authorized Honda workshop in Kuching for repairs. There were a lot of problems when I bought it but after many many many repairs, the car is in quite good condition now. See pictures (receipts) of some of the repairs done!

Picture: As below

Reason for sale: Looking for new car!

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Falken Azenis 16" tyres
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16" sport rims
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Some of the receipts from HONDA workshop (the rest thrown away!)
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Server/workstation CPUs vs. Desktop CPUs

kmarc — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:02:22 +0800

Server and workstation CPUs vs. Desktop CPUs

I had the pleasure of using an Intel X3320 server processor (equivalent to the desktop Q9300 desktop processor) although it was just a temporary bliss. My rig was not stable even at stock clocks regardless of any tweaks or bios update, probably because my mobo couldn’t support it. As such, that nice processor was returned.

However, during that brief period of owning this excellent CPU, I’ve decided to come up with a guide on the differences (or similarities) between server-class processors compared to their desktop equivalents. This is also in view of the frequently asked questions on the differences between these CPUs.

Disclaimer:
1) I’m not in the computer industry so forgive me for any mistakes. Computers are just my hobby
2) Any suggestions/comments/help is most welcomed, just pm me
3) I’m neither in Intel’s nor AMD’s camp. Sponsor me an AMD rig and I’ll do a guide for you
4) Information are scrubbed from the Internet. References are quoted at the end of the guide

Before we start

Some clarifications/definition:

Xeon processors = server/workstation processors

CPU = refers to the processor and not the whole rig/computer

Index:
1) Server/workstation processors and their counterparts
2) Comparison between Xeons and desktop CPUs
3) Differences of Xeon vs. Desktop CPU - the details
--a) VID
--b) Intel I/O Acceleration technolgoy
--c) Demand based switching
--d) PROCHOT, THERMTRIP, PECI, Intel TXT
4) Other differences - the "prefetchers"
5) CPU binning
6) Issues of compatibility with desktop motherboards
7) Conclusion
8) Other references

1) Server/workstation processors and their counterparts

I will only be concentrating certain Xeon processors especially the ones that can run on normal desktop computers.

Let's start by looking at the types of Xeon processors and their equivalent desktop processors.

[attachmentid=568993]

Note that Xeon processors, like all Intel CPUs, are divided into specific "series". In this case, it is the 3000-series which includes the 3100-series, 3200-series and 3300-series.

As you can see from the table, the Xeon processors share similar specification as their desktop counterparts. For example:
X3360 = Q9550
X3350 = Q9450
X3320 = Q9300

This is not surprising as they actually share the same architecture and performance characteristics.

However, as you will come to realize later in this guide, there are actually some differences between these CPUs.

2) Comparison between Xeons and desktop CPUs

Now, let's take a look at individual CPUs. These specs were taken direct from Intel's website. I have arranged it in a table so that it is easier to compare.

The differences between the CPUs are highlighted in red.

Quad core - Q9450 vs X3350
[attachmentid=569001]

X3350 specs : http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLAX2
Q9450 specs : http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLAWR

Major differences are:
1) VID:
- The X3350’s VID is fixed at 1.212v whereas the Q9450 can range from 0.85 – 1.3625v

2) Q9450 has PROCHOT, THERMTRIP, PECI and Intel TXT.

3) X3350 has Intel I/O AT and Demand based switching.

Note : Will discuss in detail about these differences in the next section

Quad core - Q9300 vs X3320
[attachmentid=569005]

X3320 specs : http://processorfinder.intel.com/Details.aspx?sSpec=SLAWF
Q9300 specs : http://processorfinder.intel.com/Details.aspx?sSpec=SLAWE

Major differences are:
1) VID:
- The X3320’s VID is fixed at 1.212v whereas the Q9450 can range from 0.85 – 1.3625v

2) Q9300 has PROCHOT, THERMTRIP, PECI and Intel TXT.

3) X3320 has Intel I/O AT BUT does not have Demand based switching like the X3350.

Dual core - E8400 vs E3110
[attachmentid=569010]

E3110 specs : http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLAPM
E8400 specs : http://processorfinder.intel.com/Details.aspx?sSpec=SLAPL

1) VID:
- The E3110’s VID is 0.956v – 1.225v while the E8400’s VID is 0.85v – 1.3625v

2) E8400 has PROCHOT, THERMTRIP, PECI and Intel TXT
- It also has added features i.e. C2E and C4 state, which is not available for the Q9450/Q9330 quads

3) E3110 has Intel I/O AT BUT again does not have Demand based switching like the X3350.

As you can see, there ARE differences between the Xeons and desktop CPUs. These differences will be explained in detailed in the next section.

3) Differences of Xeon vs. Desktop CPU - the details

Here's a summary of the differences:

[attachmentid=569503]

Let's go into the differences in detail.

a) VID
- I have no idea why the Xeon quad's VID is fixed at 1.212v. It is highly unlikely that this is true as my own X3320's VID is 1.15v.

- However, if you get a Q9450 with the lowest VID of 0.85v at stock, wouldn’t that be an excellent processor for overclocking? The only downside to this is that you have to hunt for such a proc with such a low VID.

- Since the Xeon quad's VID is fixed at 1.212v, I guess we won't know what is the lowest VID the proc can go.

- Although not confirmed by any scientific data, it is generally thought that processors with a lower VID would overclock better. This is because the have more headroom to overclock as the stock vcore is low to begin with.
--- However, many overclockers have found that for extreme overclocking, the differences in VID doesn't really matter as the proc is pushed to the limits. Guess that's a good thing for us as most of us are only normal overclockers

So, in terms of VID, the desktop CPUs would be the CPU of choice IF you can find one with such a low VID. This is in view of the unknown actual VIDs for the xeon.s

b) Intel I/O AT (Acceleration technology)
- Only present on the Xeon

Direct from Intel

QUOTE

This unique technology moves network data more efficiently through Intel Xeon processor-based servers for fast, scaleable, and reliable networking”
In other words, Intel I/O AT reduces CPU utilization for the processing of network packets which will increase throughput and decrease latency. This frees up the CPU to do other important things.

Performance
A primary benefit of Intel I/OAT is its ability to significantly reduce CPU overhead, freeing resources for more critical tasks. Intel I/OAT uses the server’s processors more efficiently by leveraging architectural improvements within the CPU, chipset, network controller, and firmware to minimize performance-limiting bottlenecks. Intel I/OAT accelerates TCP/IP processing, delivers data-movement efficiencies across the entire server platform, and minimizes system overhead.

Scalability
Intel I/OAT provides network acceleration that scales seamlessly across multiple Gigabit Ethernet (GbE) ports. It cost-effectively scales up to eight GbE ports and up to 10GbE, with power and thermal characteristics similar to those of a standard gigabit network adapter. TCP Offload Engine (TOE) solutions, in contrast, require a separate TOE card for each port, resulting in significant cost and thermal challenges for server platforms.

Reliability
Intel I/OAT is a safe and flexible choice because it is tightly integrated into popular operating systems such as Microsoft Windows Server* 2003 and Linux*, avoiding support risks associated with relying on third-party hardware vendors for network stack updates. Intel I/OAT also preserves critical network configurations such as teaming and failover, by maintaining control of the network stack processing within the CPU—where it belongs. This results in reduced support risks for IT departments.

Features and benefits of I/O AT:
[attachmentid=569527]

If you want more info, you can take a look at this video from Intel about the I/O AT : http://softwareblogs.intel.com/2008/07/29/...nd-opensolaris/

From the information above, it is obvious that the Intel I/O AT would benefit servers and workstations but probably not desktop computers.

c) Demand Based Switching (DBS)
- DBS is another power management feature that allows Xeon processors to reduce core frequency and voltage until the horsepower is actually required. The core frequency is reduced to a minimum of 2.8Ghz until the demands of an application or service force the processor back to its default clock speed.

- This can substantially reduce average power consumption for servers operating at typical data centre utilization rates. According to IBM, DBS has the capability to save customers 24% annually in power cost.

- DBS is only available for the 3.4 and 3.6Ghz versions of the Xeon processor (D0 stepping).

- Note that DBS will have the most impact on data centres (naturally, as it is a server processor!), and thus, do not benefit home users. Furthermore, home users have better power consumption features like the EIST and C1E power management features….

Wikipedia defined DBS in the most appropriate manner:

QUOTE

Intel DBS is a re-marketing of Intel’s Speedstep technology to the server marketplace.

Again, DBS would not benefit home users as it is naturally designed for servers/workstations. Furthermore, desktop processors has Intel's Speedstep technology and doesn't need DBS.

d) PROCHOT, THERMTRIP, PECI, TXT, C2E and C4 features

I can't be sure whether the Xeons have such features in their proc. However, based on their datasheet, these features are not mentioned at all and I would assumed that this is correct.

PROCHOT
Short for “Processor Hot”

Designed to activate the processor’s Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) when the processor’s has reached its maximum safe operating temperature. The TCC then reduces processor power consumption by modulating (i.e. starting and stopping) the internal processor core clocks, which subsequently results in a gradual decrease in core temperature.
The TCC will only activate when the Thermal Monitor is enabled.

In short, this feature will slow down the processor if it is too hot. Definitely important for overclockers, not because of too high overclocking, but rather may be due to inadequate cooling or improperly seated HSF.

THERMTRIP
Short for “Thermal Trip”

In the event of a catastrophic cooling failure, the processor will automatically shut down when the silicon has reached a temperature approximately 20’C above the maximum Tc. Activation of THERMTRIP indicates the processor junction temperature has reached a level beyond where permanent silicon damage may occur. Once activated, the processor will automatically shut down.

In short, this feature will shutdown the processor/computer once critical core temperature is reached. Also important for overclockers as explained above.

PECI (Platform Environment Control Interface)
A proprietary one-wire bus interface that provides a communication channel between the processor and chipset components to external monitoring devices.

The processor contains Digital Thermal Sensors (DTS) distributed throughout it’s die (i.e. temperature sensors in the die). PECI provides an interface to relay the highest DTS temperature within a die to external management devices for thermal/fan speed control.

Take a look at this diagram:
[attachmentid=569526]

Source : http://intel.wingateweb.com/US08/published...MTS001_100r.pdf

In summary, PECI is definitely an important feature in desktop processors. Again, even though PECI is not stated in Xeon processors, I had the impression that PECI does exist in Xeons as I can still monitoring the core temperature of my X3320 and my CPU HSF will speed up and slow down based on the core temperature readings.

Until and unless somebody knows the answer to this, I have to assume that it is also present in Xeon processors based on my own personal experience.

Intel TXT (Intel Trusted Execution Technology)
A security technology to help protect against software-based attacks. It is Intel’s safer computing initiative that defines a set of hardware enhancements that interoperate with an Intel TXT-enabled operating system.

Direct from Wikipedia:

QUOTE

Intel Trusted Execution Technology (Intel TXT) is a hardware extension to some of Intel's microprocessors and respective chipsets, intended to provide users and organizations (governments, enterprises, corporations, universities, etc.) with a higher level of trusting while accessing, modifying or creating sensitive data and code. Intel claims that it will be very useful, especially in the business world, as a way to defend against software-based attacks aimed at stealing sensitive information.

Definitely a must for desktop processors IF it protects your computer from hackers. However, there seems to be a disadvantage to this technology. Thanks to our forumer ktek for this link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

C2E and C4
These terms refers to Intel’s processor low-power states (C1, C2, C3 and C4). C0 is the normal operating state of a processor.

In order to conserve energy and reduce thermal load, Intel’s processor include the option of operating in several operating “states”. During the times when the processor is working hard, the greatest processor clock frequency that is available may be selected to enhance processor throughput. However, during the times when instructions are not being processed, the processor may transfer to one of several available low-power states. In these states, the processor clock frequency may be reduced or completely stopped.

Also important for desktop processors.

4) Other differences - the "prefetchers"

Unconfirmed reports have indicated that there are differences in the prefetchers between the Xeon and desktop CPUs.

Direct quote from this link : http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3216

QUOTE

Despite using a Xeon socket, the Core 2 Extreme QX9775 isn't a Xeon. It turns out there are some very subtle differences between Core 2 and Xeon processors, even if they're based on the same core. Intel tunes the prefetchers on Xeon and Core 2 CPUs differently so unlike the Xeon 5365 used in its V8 platform, the QX9775 is identical in every way to desktop Core 2 processors - the only difference being pinout.

Intel wouldn't give us any more information on how the prefetchers are different, but we suspect the algorithms are tuned according to the typical applications Xeons find themselves running vs. where most Core 2s end up.

Another quote from a forumer : http://forum.ncix.com/forums/index.php?mod...ber=5&subpage=2

QUOTE

As Xeons are aimed at servers and workstations, the four prefetchers are tuned for these sorts of applications, rather than standard desktop applications and games

As stated by Anandtech, Intel is not providing more information on the prefetchers and as such, there is no point in speculating further on this matter.

5) CPU binning
"CPU binning" or "speed binning of processors" is basically a process where CPUs are tested and then divided into different bins (i.e. groups) based on their capabilities in terms of speed.

Note : I can't seem to find any good sources of chip binning. Anybody who has info on this, please give me some info. Thx. As such, the following is a compilation and summary of what is available on the net.

Why is CPU binning important in this guide? Well, it is well-known that server-class processors goes through a more "vigorous" testing compared to desktop processors. It is thought that Xeons (compared to their equivalent counterpart):
1) Higher binned with less power requirements (run at lower operating voltages)
2) Undergo additional validation testing

Due to the above factors, it is said that CPUs that make the grade for server/workstations are the best of the breed. This in turn, translates to a more reliable CPU (they are supposed to run 24/7!) that overclocks better (although not necessarily so).

As an analogue, just imagine that you have 100 runners for the 100m olympic games. (Sad that the olympics is over )
- Imagine that you want to divide them into 10 groups, with group 1 with the best runners and group 10 with slowest runners.
- How would you divide them? Naturally, you would categorize them based on their times, e.g. group 1 below 10 seconds, group 2 from 10.0 to 10.5 seconds, group 3, 10.5-11.0 seconds, and so on and so forth
- In the end, you'll have 10 groups which, for marketing purposes, you give them some names:
---Group 1 is QX9650
---Group 2 is QX9450
---Group 3 is X3360
---Group 4 is Q9450
---Group 5 is X3320
---Group 6 is Q9300
---Group 7 is Q8200
---Group 10 is also grouped in special bin - the dust bin!!!!

Now, just substitute the groups for bins and you'll get the idea.

As such, the higher binned processors are better as they are capable of higher speeds.

How are the bins graded?
Again, there is no good source of information on this.

However, this article on the new exciting feature of "Turbo Mode" in Intel's upcoming CPU "Core i7" (which is nehalem) does give a hint that a "bin" translates to a speed difference of 200-300mhz.

QUOTE

The latest revelation is Turbo Mode. According to IDF stalwart and all round Intel evangelist, Pat Gelsinger, Turbo Mode allows individual cores in its upcoming Core i7 desktop CPU to be entirely switched off.

That in turn allows additional power to be channelled to the remaining cores. The idea is to boost performance in applications that do not make use of all four of Core i7's processor cores.

Intel says that for single threaded applications, the technique allows the speed of a single core to be boosted by two "bins". In layman's terms, a bin translates into around 200-300MHz.

Source : http://www.techradar.com/news/computing/id...e-i7-cpu-455108

Other sources

If you want to know more, the following are excerpts of what chip binning is about.

QUOTE

It’s essentially a practice in which chip manufacturers design a chip to hit a targeted speed grade, say for example 2GHz, but after the chips are manufactured and tested, manufactures find some of the chips perform at the targeted speed grade of 2GHz, some perform at higher than 2GHz, and even more perform at lower speeds than that targeted specification number (some of those lower performing chips may perform at 1.8 GHz, others at 1.5 GHz and some at 1 GHz…and lower).

But instead of throwing out the chips that didn’t hit the targeted performance specification, some semiconductor vendors, especially microprocessor vendors, sell most of them to us, the consumer. They simply put them in bins according to speed grade and price them accordingly. In processors for example, the processors that are the highest speed, essentially overclocked processors, traditionally sell for a premium and go into gaming machines. The ones that hit targeted performance go into high end home computing and business PCs. The ones that didn’t hit their targeted performance go into lower cost PCs and the very very lowest ones get thrown out. Very little is wasted. That’s one of the reasons processor companies do so well, they get to sell most of their inventories. Other types of chips, like ASICs, have to hit performance grades and meet system specifications or customers don’t buy them.

Source from www.edn.com : http://www.edn.com/blog/1480000148/post/1240018324.html

QUOTE

On every lot of wafers produced, regardless of manufacturer, there is a distribution of chips- it may be Gaussian, it may be Poisson, it may be something else- and it is always nearly skewed in some vector or another (fmax at the expense of yield, power at the expense of fmax,...). Since we are discussing fmax, there are typically two options available- produce standard lots, and get low bin splits (small percentages of the lot) in the highest speed bin, but good overall die yield, with lots of lower speed bins. Or... run a skew lot, where top bin split is much higher, but die yield is likely lower, typically due to higher leakage (due to CDs, implants, and a number of other process tricks that yield speed).

Economically speaking, this means that introducing a new top bin would be for one of two reasons:
1. Defensive purposes: competitive environment requires a faster chop to compete.
2. Offensive purposes: competitive environment can be changed by introing a faster part. This could be viewed from the "final nail" viewpoint.

In the case of defensive purposes, there isn't a lot a company can do- if their hand is forced, it is forced. You do what you need to to compete. In the second scenario however, there are additional considerations. If the new top bin is not required to compete, then maximizing profit/revenue behavior should drive the release decision. If by releasing a new top bin, I reduce the amount of $1K parts I can sell, and take my current performance leader and whack the price in half- have I sabotaged myself? If I can get high enough yields of top bin, this is an easy decision- crush the competition. But if I can't, and I can only generate a few %, then why do it?

I believe the latter is the case at Intel today. If Intel HAD to release a higher bin, they would do so. Manufacturing capacity what it is, they can afford to tank yield on some % of skew lots for more higher bin parts. They can even afford to put some "better than stock" cooling on said parts for a few $$/SKU. But the marketplace isn't demanding it, because AMD is currently not executing- and therefore Intel is maximizing profit.

Quoted from Dr. Yield here : http://scientiasblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/...hz-barrier.html

6) Issues of compatibility with desktop motherboards

It is important to realize that Xeons are manufactured for servers and workstations. It is said that the micro-code of Xeons are very different and as such, not all motherboards will work correctly with the Xeons if they don't recognize the micro-code of the CPU.

However, most new motherboards especially the higher end and better quality ones should have a proper BIOS that supports the Xeon processors. For relatively older motherboards that supports 45nm processors, a BIOS update to the latest one that supports 45nm processors should solve the problem.

I, on the other hand, had the unfortunate experience of having a motherboard that is not compatible with my previous X3320 even with an updated bios.

7) Conclusion
I wished there were better sources of information to base this guide on but alas, this is not to be. However, I will just make some conclusions based on available information. If anybody comes across any good information on this topic, kindly inform me and I will include it in here.

So, after presenting all available informations, I guess you want answers to a few questions:

1) Are Xeons EXACTLY the same as their desktop counterparts?

- I'm sure you have seen forums where forumers say something like this "THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!". And the tone of their reply indicated that they are 110% sure!!
- Well, as you can see from above, they are NOT exactly the same. Maybe 99% identical?

2) Are there any performance differences for normal users/gamers?

- As far as anybody can tell, they perform the same in games and in any normal everyday applications
- Actually, I can't find any direct comparisons between the Xeons and their desktop counterparts

3) Are the Xeons really good overclockers?

- In general, Xeons should overclock better compared to desktop CPUs due to their lower voltages and higher binning.
- This is not necessary so but we're talking about overall overclocking capabilities between each class

- In addition, overclockers wants would want better reliability of the CPUs which server processors can provide as they undergo extra testing and are supposed to run 24/7.
- Again, that doesn't mean that desktop processors are less reliable for home users

4) Should I get a Xeon or a proper desktop CPU?

- In my opinion, if you want to overclock, you should get a Xeon rather that its desktop counterpart PROVIDED that your motherboard can support it.
- You may argue that you can find a good desktop processor with low VID and good overclockability. Well, the same can be said for the Xeon processor right?

So, based on all available information, I would go for a Xeon processor rather than its desktop equivalent as it has more potential to be a good overclocker, relatively more reliable and probably more or less similarly prices compared to their desktop equivalent.

Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong in getting a desktop processor!!!

8) Other references

General
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon

E3110 review
http://www.circuitremix.com/index.php?q=node/122

X3320 review
http://techreport.com/articles.x/14555

Intel Will Disclose DTS Specs for 45nm processors

kmarc — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:56:20 +0800

Great news! We can finally monitor the core temperature of 45nm CPUs when Intel discloses the DTS specs!

This will only be revealed at the upcoming IDF : http://www.tomshardware.com/news/IDF-DTS-T...ature,6154.html

Update:

The Tjunctions for the 45nm procs are out!

45nm Desktop Dual-Core Processors
Intel Core 2 Duo processor E8000 and E7000 series - 100Â°C

45 nm Desktop Quad-Core Processors
Intel Core 2 Quad processor Q9000 and Q8000 series - 100Â°C
Intel Core 2 Extreme processor QX9650 - 95Â°C
Intel Core 2 Extreme processor QX9770 - 85Â°C

Link : http://intel.wingateweb.com/US08/published...MTS001_100r.pdf

Update x2: Oops... looks like it is not as simple as that

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-dts-cpu,6300.html

[WTS] Dlink ADSL modem router DSL-504T

kmarc — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:23:35 +0800

Item(s): Dlink ADSL modem router DSL-504T

Package includes: Modem + power adapter + box

Price: RM 25 including poslaju

Warranty: 1 week personal

Dealing method: COD preferred, if poslaju, buyer pays

Location of seller: Kuching

Contact method/details: Post here or pm me

Age of item: 3+ years

---

Item(s) conditions: Still working up to today.
- This modem has 4 ports
- Port 1 & 2 already kaput
- I was using port 3 & 4 for my 2 computers

- The modem also sometimes reset itself.... so I have to key-in the password and user ID again....

Picture: As below

Reason for sale: Got new modem!

The end of Nvidia chipset?

kmarc — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:30:52 +0800

Nvidia Set to Quit Chipset Business, Multi-GPU SLI Tech in Danger : http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/chipsets/disp..._in_Danger.html

Whether this is good or bad news remains to be seen.... if SLI technology is opened up, then it is easier to SLI without the need to buy nforce-based motherboards.....

PSU guide

kmarc — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:34:00 +0800

Noob guide to the basics of a computer PSU (Power Supply Unit)

I myself knew nothing about PSUs and wanted to know more about it. So, in the quest to find out more about PSUs, I did my own reading, from whatever available sources on the net. As such, this guide was created to help other noobs (like me) who wants to understand more about the PSU.

All information was pulled from the net and references are listed at the end.

Any help/advice/comments are most welcomed, especially PSU gurus!

Index:

1st post
- The Power Supply Unit (PSU) - Definition
- The basics
- Before we begin - ATX form factor
- How to read the specification of a PSU
- The very very important 12v rail
- Multiple 12V rails vs. Single 12V rail

2nd post
- The basic components of a PSU
- Connectors
- Modular PSUs

3rd post
- Efficiency
- The "80 PLUS" standard
- Power Factor Correction (PFC)

4th post
- Which brand is a good brand?
- How much watt does my rig need anyway?
- Tips on buying a good PSU
- References

The Power Supply Unit (PSU) - Definition
Everybody knows what a PSU is but here’s a simple definition anyway:
A component that supplies power to a computer by converting AC power drawn from your main socket to usable low-voltage DC power for the internal components of your computer. The output of DC power are through rails (see below).

AC – Alternating current
DC – Direct current (no, I’m not going to explain this, google it up yourself! )

Take a look at this picture for better understanding:

[attachmentid=520681]

The basics

Important terms

Watt – The accepted market rating for power supplies
- Watts = Volts(v) x Amps(A)
- This formula is important to calculate the wattage on each rail. Read on for further understanding

Rails – Every power supply has many rails. Each rail is rated for a specific voltage, and will always carry that voltage no matter how many devices are connected to it
- However, each rail has an AMPERE RATING (A). The more devices you connect to each rail, the lower the available amperage to the rest of your computer system will be on that specific rail.
- Examples of the rails available on a typical PSU:

[attachmentid=520684]

Before we begin - ATX form factor
Know that most common PSUs are build to conform to the ATX form factor @ standard (google this for more info). As such, the guide is based mainly on ATX power supplies unless stated otherwise.

ATX – Advanced Technology Extended

The ATX form factor has had 5 main power supply designs throughout its lifetime:

[attachmentid=520693]

ATXv12 v2.2 is the current standard. However, there’s a new Intel ATX12V v2.3 specification.

Additional notes on the 24-pin main connector: PCI-E requires a 75-watt power requirement that was not capable with the older 20-pin connector. To handle this, 4 additional pins were added to the connector to supply the addition power through 12V rails

Most PSUs nowadays comes with a 24-pin connectors actually have pins arrange in a 20+4 setup….. The detachable 4-pins connector will allow the connector (20-pins) to fit into older motherboards that uses the ATX12V 1.0/1.3 specification (see the part on "connectors").

How to read the specification of a PSU
So, if you understand the basics, you should be able to read the specification of a PSU.
Take a look at the specs of my Enermax Liberty 500W:

[attachmentid=520744]

1st row - shows your AC input (your wall socket voltage i.e. 240v for Malaysia)

2nd row – shows the DC output to all the rails (i.e. +3.3v, +5v, dual 12v rail (+12V1 & +12V2), -12v, +5vsb)

3rd row – shows the Amperage (A) for each rail

4th row – shows the maximum wattage for the rails
- Note that the +3.3v rail and the +5v rail both comes under the maximum wattage of 160W.
- This means that the PSU cannot feed both the rails maximum amperage at once. It can feed the +3.3v rail to 28A, or it can feed the +5v rail to 30A. However, it cannot feed both the rails to their maximum at the same time i.e. (3.3v x 28A) + (5v x 30A) = 92.4 watts + 150 watts = 242.4 watts (which exceeds the 160 watt limit)

- Also note that this PSU has two 12V rails - +12V1 & +12V2
- Why 2 rails instead of 1?
--- +12V1 max Ampere is 22A and +12V2 max Ampere is also 22A
--- However, when added together, the maximum Ampere is 32A and NOT 22A + 22A = 44A

--- This is because this kind of PSU only has one set of circuitry inside the PSU which generates the 12 volts, capable of supplying 32A in total (32A x 12v = 384w). However, due to various reasons (see below on "Multiple 12V rails vs. Single 12V rail"), it is split into 2 separate 12 volt outputs each with its own current limit circuitry (i.e. +12V1 & +12V2), each capable of supplying 22A for each rail (22A x 12v = 264W). As such, if you try to draw more than 22 amps from either of the +12v rails, the PSU will shut down. If you try to draw more than 32 amps of total current from BOTH of the rails, the PSU will also shut down.

Note : So now you know why your rig keeps on shutting down!!!

- In other words, just like the 3.3v and the 5v rails, the two +12v rails are also NOT additive. Peak power is for one or the other, but not both at the same time i.e. (12v x 22A) + (12v x 22A) = 264w + 264w = 528w. The peak power is indicated as 384w (32A) which is 12v x 32A = 384w.

Right most column – shows the:
Total power = 500w (which is what we commonly refer to as “True power” or equivalent)
Peak power = 550w (which can be deceiving……more on this later)

Note that when you buy a PSU, you want to see the amount of CONTINUOUS power that the PSU can supply. For my Enermax, it is 500w.
Some manufacturers provide PEAK power, to make it more attractive for buyers. However, peak power is considered as false advertising, trying to make users buy their product based on their cheap but falsely high PSU wattage.

The very very important 12V rail.....
From the table above, you can see that the 12V rails supply important components especially the CPU and the graphic card.

Nowadays, the graphic card needs more and more power and it is a must for you to check the requirements of a graphic card before you buy the graphic card or PSU. Manufacturers usually do state the PSU requirement on their website or on the product box.

Here are some examples of some graphic card power requirements:

[attachmentid=540039]

Here's some examples of actual power consumptions at idle and load - GPU, CPU & mobo:
http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3413
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/GeForc...ck,2028-22.html

Example 1

Wait a second. Take a look at my Enermax Liberty specification:

[attachmentid=522693]

If you look at the specification of my PSU, you'll notice that my +12V1 is only 22A (red circle) and my +12V2 is also 22A. So, how can I run my 8800GT (requiring 26A on the 12v rail) with this PSU?????

Well, the answer is that the rating on the 12v rail is the COMBINED amperage. For my Enermax, the combined rating on the 12v rail is actually 32A (blue circle), which would run the 8800GT just fine. Note that this PSU would not be recommended to run the GTX260 or GTX280 as their amperage rating is far higher.

Example 2

Take a look a this PSU:

[attachmentid=522694]

From the specs, it is obvious that this PSU has only one 12v rail which is rated at 22A. As such, this PSU is not recommended to run any of the Nvidia GPU listed above!

For the above statement,Note the word "not recommended" as opposed to "cannot". I didn't say that this PSU CANNOT run, say, the 8800GT. What is important is that this PSU does not meet the requirements of the manufacturer and thus NOT recommended to run on that PSU. You might still be able to use it if you want, but might encounter instability, BSODs, reboots and worse of all, damage to your graphic card or your whole rig.

Example 3

Here's another example. It's a Cooler Master Real Power 550w PSU:

[attachmentid=540060]

Let's concentrate on the +12v rails.

From the specs, you can see that the PSU as 3x +12v rails. It also states the "Peak" amperage and "continuous" amperage. Remember that the "continuous" amperage is the important one.

You can see that the total wattage on the +12v rails is 360W. Wait a second. There is no amperage stated!

That's easily solve by calculating the amperage as you already the the voltage and wattage.

Remember the formula : Watts = Voltage x Amperes

So, Amperes = Watts / Voltage = 360w / 12v = 30A

So, this PSU has 30A on it's 12v rails

Multiple 12V rails vs. Single 12V rail

I'm getting a BIG headache regarding this. Will try to summarize these issues if possible. In the meanwhile, take a look at some good references:
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psumultirail/multirails.html
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/181/12
http://www.xcpus.com/forums/cases-psus/109...-101-102-a.html
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page3.html

The "Dual-core" vs. "Quad-core" guide

kmarc — Sat, 17 May 2008 00:16:33 +0800

The "Dual-core" vs. "Quad-core" guide

Time and again, the million dollar question crops up � �Should I buy a dual-core or a quad-core?�

There are scattered pieces of information all over the net. This guide has been created in an attempt to compile, summarize and add useful information and opinions.

Please note:
- I welcome any advice or suggestions that you may have.
- Any mistakes or incorrect facts are regretted and will be corrected when informed.
- I'm not pro-Intel. It's just that I have been using Intel CPUs lately and have more experiences with them

Index
1) Definitions
2) Dual-core vs Quad-core
3) Quad-core - There must be some advantages right?
4) Real world applications/software/games
5) CPU charts 2007
6) Summary

Definitions

The boring stuff. Skip this if you want to go straight to the main topic!

Thread
A thread in computer science is short for "thread of execution". It is is a stream of instructions from a certain program. Threads are a way for a program to fork (or split) itself into two or more simultaneously (or pseudo-simultaneously) running tasks. (wikipedia).

The OS bundles instructions in threads so that it can effectively simulate multitasking (i.e. running 2 programs at once). The CPU basically processes one thread, then switches to another thread (this is term as "context switching"). By doing this very fast at a fixed interval (this is term as "time slice"), it can simulate the illusion that it's running 2 programs at the same time.

For example, if you have a single core CPU, and are running a few programs simultaneously, you can observe that all the programs/tasks are running together without any problems..... It may look like multitasking (as you are running a few task simultaneously) but in reality, it is just an illusion.....

Multi-threading
Multithreading refers to the capability of an application/game to execute different parts of it's program, called threads, simultaneously. This can only be done if the application/game was designed and programmed to do multithreading. Single-threaded programs cannot run this way because it was not programmed as such.

Superthreading
Also know as time-slice multithreading

A multithreading approach that weaves together the execution of different threads on a single processor without truly executing them at the same time. It is motivated by the observation that the processor is occasionally left idle while executing an instruction from one thread. Super-threading seeks to make use of unused processor cycles by applying them to the execution of an instruction from another thread (wikipedia).

Hyperthreading
Also known as simultaneous multithreading (SMT).

An Intel-proprietary technology used to improve parallelization of computations performed on PC microprocessors via simultaneous multithreading. It is an improvement on super-threading (wikipedia).

Hyperthreading was originally introduced by Intel in the single-core Pentium 4 processors. Intel claims up to a 30% speed improvement compared against an otherwise identical, non-simultaneous multithreading Pentium 4. The performance improvement seen is very application-dependent, however, and some programs actually slow down slightly when Hyper Threading Technology is turned on (wikipedia).

Hyperthreading results in a simulated second virtual core within a physical core CPU (single core) and was the first step to take advantage of multi-threaded applications on the desktop. In other words, hyperthreading makes a CPU with a single core pretend to be two so that none of the CPU is being wasted when running programs that don't use the CPU to its full potential.

Except for its performance implications, this innovation is transparent to operating systems and programs. All that is required to take advantage of Hyper-Threading is symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) support in the operating system, as the logical processors appear as standard separate processors.

Remember that hyperthreading can only run on CPUs that have the Hyperthreading technology. Intel is again introducing the hyperthreading technology in the upcoming Nahelem core. This technology would simulate four additional threads in quad-core processors (you could say a virtual 8 core CPU!) and eight additional threads in eight-core processors (for a total of 16).

More details here :
Intro to Multithreading, Superthreading and Hyperthreading (by Jon Stokes)
Hyperthreading - Tomshardware
Hyperthreading (wikipedia)

Note : Multithreading is not the same as multitasking in that threads share more of their environment with each other than do tasks under multitasking (please google for more info on this)

Analogy
Confused? Ok, I will attempt to explain this using a real world example. (Kindly correct me if the example is incorrect or wrong).

Let's take a Malaysian car factory, with 4 workers building 4 separate cars..... say a waja, a saga, a Gen2 and a Lotus Elise ..... (For this example, the car factory is your CPU)

However, the car factory has only one production line, meaning that at any one time, only one worker can work on his car. (The production line is the process. As your CPU is a single-core, it can only run only one process at a time)

In that production line, it is divided into a few sections i.e. metal section for creating the body, engine section, electrical section, interior car section, painting section, tyre section and final assembly section. (Each section is like the "thread" in the process/program)

Because the production line can only accommodate one worker at a time, it means that one worker can only build his car until he finishes it at the final assembly area before another worker can start building his car. (This is like a single-core CPU running a single-threaded process/program)

This is wasteful, isn't it?

Furthermore, if the worker gets stuck somewhere down the production line, e.g. at the engine section, the whole production line would come to a stop until he gets through the whole production line.....

Understand so far?

Ok, suppose that the production line can allocate a fixed time for each person to work on the production line, say 30 minutes for each worker (time slicing). This means that all 4 workers can work on the production line once it is their turn to do so. However, only one worker can work on the production line at any one 30-minute time. (This is analogous to multithreading). So, even if one worker is stuck at a certain section, once his 30 minutes is up, he has to stop while other workers start their 30-minute allotted time.

So, what you see is the "illusion" that all 4 workers are working in the factory but in fact, only one worker is working at any one time. The good thing about this is that other workers can still continue their work even if one worker is stuck somewhere.....

(I can't really understand superthreading, so I can't give an analogy on that. Anybody can help?)

Now, suppose that the production line can accommodate 2 workers in any section of the production line at any one time. This means that 2 workers can work simultaneously to complete their car. As such, even though there is only one production line, due to this ability, it is like having each worker working in their own production line or it is like having 2 production lines instead of one. (This is hyperthreading).

Due to this, the production line would be more efficient as 2 workers can build 2 cars at the same time.

Important : Of course, this is not really what happens in CPU. This analogy is just trying to make you understand what each term means.

Note : I hope my analogy is not flawed. Any expert help would be appreciated!!!

Dual-core vs Quad-core
What are the advantages/disadvantages of dual-core vs. quad-core?

Dual-core
- Less power consumption
- Less heat generation
- Better overclocking capabilities
- Lower price
- At the same price point, a dual-core generally has a higher stock/overclocking speed

Quad-core
- Higher power consumption
- Higher heat generation
- Lower overclocking capabilities
- Higher price
- Even with double the cores of dual-core, the improvement in any given application that supports 4-cores is not doubled! (note : The folding program is one exception, where you can get almost double the computation with quads!!!)

Important : Please note that when we talk about dual vs quad, the comparison is usually valid for the same types of CPU family i.e. comparing a dual conroe with a quad conroe, or a dual penryn vs. a quad penryn.....

Power consumption
- higher for quads either at idle or at load
- which leads to higher electricity bill!

Here's a nice chart from www.bit-tech.net
Source : http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/04/0...00_and_e8200/11

[attachmentid=472854]

Heat generation
- 4 cores will generate more heat
- As such, a quad would need better cooling
- Remember that heat is the no. 1 enemy of overclocking

This is reflected as TDP (although Intel and AMD's definition of TDP is different). See the table below....
[attachmentid=473969]

Overclocking
Quad-cores loses out to dual-cores in terms of overclocking in every aspect (even if they use the same processor die):

1) Speed - dual-core can overclock higher at any given vcore
--- e.g. my previous E6750 can OC to 3.5Ghz at 1.400v in BIOS, where my current Q6600 can only reach 3.2Ghz at 1.400v in BIOS....

2) FSB - quad-cores usually have a lower max FSB, mainly due not only to heat but bus speed issues
--- e.g. a E6750 G0 stepping may max at 490-500mhz.... a Q6600 G0 may only max at 450-460mhz....

3) Tweaking/BIOS setup - a quad-core may need more tweaks in BIOS e.g. VTT, GTL, etc....

4) Vdroop - using a similar setup/motherboard, quad-cores usually have a larger vdroop, making load vcore lower and thus less overclocking speed
--- It is observed that quad-core results in more vdroop
--- For example, for a BIOS-set vcore of 1.400v:
------ a dual-core may result in a vdrop/vdroop of at load e.g. : 1.39v/1.36v
------ a quad-core usually has a higher vdrop/vdroop at load e.g. : 1.36v/1.32v
--- So, if you look at the real vcore at load, the dual will be running at 1.36v whereas the quad is running at 1.32v, which is 0.04v lower.....

5) Heat - there will be much more heat generated for an overclocked quad-core as compared to an overclocked dual-core
--- this will again, limit the overclocking capabilities of the quad....

Prices
Important : Please note that the prices refer to RETAILS units and not OEM.....

Speed for speed - Dual-cores are cheaper than quad-cores
- e.g. E6600 is cheaper than Q6600 (both stock speed at 2.4Ghz)
- e.g. E6750 is also cheaper than Q6600 (Even though the E6750 runs faster at 2.66Ghz)

At the same price point - Dual-core are generally has a faster speed
- E.g. Previous, you could probably get a E6850 (3.0Ghz) at the same price as a Q6600 (2.4Ghz) - dropping prices not withstanding
- Due to this factor, the dual-core would be better suited for non-overclockers.....

- Comparing a E6850 vs a Q6600 (quoted below): http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=154933

QUOTE

The advantages of dual-core Core 2 Duo E6850 over the quad-core Core 2 Quad Q6600 look as follows:
- 25% higher clock speed ensuring higher performance in applications that aren�t optimized for multi-threading;
- Higher bus frequency that increases the memory subsystem performance. Peak bandwidth of the bus between the processor and memory for CPUs with 1333MHz bus is 10.7GB/s vs. 8.5GB/s by CPUs with 1067MHz bus.
- 46% lower heat dissipation that allows using relatively simple and inexpensive cooling solutions, even during overclocking.

The advantages of the quad-core Core 2 Quad Q6600 over dual-core Core 2 Duo E6850:
- Twice as many computational cores that ensure higher performance in multi-threaded applications.
- Twice as large L2 cache memory. It is especially crucial for Windows Vista users as this operating system can distribute computational threads intellectually over the cores with shared or exclusive L2 cache.

- Comparing a E6850 vs a QX6850 : http://www.tkarena.com/Articles/tabid/59/c...33/Default.aspx

- Comparing a E8500 vs a Q9300 (quoted below) : http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/displ...00_5.html#sect0

QUOTE

This picture is very ambiguous. There are still quite a lot of applications that haven�t been optimized for CPUs with more than two cores that is why Core 2 Quad Q9300 gets often defeated by Core 2 Duo E8500 due to the higher clock frequency of the latter. It is especially frustrating that games, even the latest ones, fall into the non-optimized applications category, as they still cannot use efficiently the advantages of multi-core micro-architecture. However, the situation is not as hopeless as it was 6 months ago, for instance. Game developers started paying some attention to optimizing their work for processors with more than two cores onboard. The list of games that provide quality quad-core processors support has increased significantly and currently includes such popular titles as Supreme Commander, Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, Unreal Tournament 3, Microsoft Flight Simulator X, etc.

-Comparing a E8600/E8500 vs a Q6700/Q6600 : http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/intel_...iew/default.asp

QUOTE

Ultimately your opinion on the E8600 is going to depend on how you use your PC. If you’re the type of user who spends a lot of time with video encoding and other apps like Photoshop and Premiere and not so much gaming, a dual-core CPU like the E8600 probably won’t do despite its 3.33GHz clock speed.

Gamers however that don’t dabble with these apps would be well served by the E8600. It has an enormous amount of headroom for overclocking, blazing clock speed, and consumes less power than comparably priced quad-core CPUs from AMD and Intel.

For these users the only real downside to the E8600 is its price: the CPU is selling on Newegg right now for $275; $85 more than the E8500, which performed just 2-3% slower in most of our testing.

Is the E8600 worth an extra $85? For most users, probably not. But for that enthusiast who really wants to OC this chip to its fullest potential, it really is nice having that 10.0 clock multiplier.

If it were my money though I’d probably save the cash and get an E8400.

For gamers:
- The graphic card is usually more important than the CPU (in general)
- the money saved to get a dual-core instead of a quad-core can be used to spend on better graphic cards!!!

Read more about this here :
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/dual-quad,1720-18.html
http://www.guru3d.com/article/cpu-scaling-...e-processors/11

Quad core - there must be some advantages right?

1) Quad core has a distinct performance advantage in a wide variety of professional applications because many of them are design for multithreading
- Video editing/encoding
- 3D graphics rendering
- Image processing
- Scientific computing e.g. Folding
- many background processes e.g. anti-virus, anti-spyware, Bittorrent, etc...
- multitasking, examples are:
--- DivX encode + 720p Quicktime - http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=9323&page=8
--- MP3 & WME9 encoding while gaming - http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/intel_...view/page10.asp

- Audio encoding???

2) Quads usually have larger L2 cache, which maybe useful for cache-intensive applications

However, in games, the advantages of quad-core is minimal as most current games support only a single thread and occasionally two, but rarely four.

Real world applications/softwares/games

Note : Numbers in bracket are the sources/references listed below

No or negligible improvement (speed for speed) using quad-core
Games
- Battlefield 2 (16)
- Call of Duty 2 (1)
- Call of Duty 4 : Modern warfare (14,18)
- Company of Heroes (12,19)
- Crysis ? (13,14,15,17,18,19) - most review does not show any improvements, ? graphic card bottle-neck?
- Elders scroll : Oblivion (3,6)
- Enemy territory : Quake wars (18)
- Far cry (9)
- FEAR : Extraction point (1,9,14,18)
- Half life : Episode 1 (6)
- Half Life : Lost coast (12)
- Half life 2 Episode 2 ? (13,14) - suppose to support quad core but reviews say otherwise
- Need for speed : Most wanted (7)
- Prey (2)
- Quake 4 (1,2,9)
- Quake wars : Enemy territory (19)
- Rainbow 6 : Vegas (3)
- Serious sam 2 (2)
- Stalker - Shadow of Chernobyl (18)
- Unreal tournament 2004 (2)
- Warhammer : Mark of chaos (2)
- World in conflict (13,15,17,18,19)
- World of warcraft (17)

Applications
- Adobe premier (16)
- Aquamark 3 (5)
- AVG antivirus (2) - actually slower!
- Blender (15)
- Clone DVD 2 (2)
- iTunes audio/mp3 encoding (2,11,13)
- LAME 3.97/LAME MP3 Encoder (1,2,8,16)
- Mathematica (13)
- Mozilla (16)
- MS Office (16)
- Org-Vorbis 1.1.2 (1)
- Photoshop 7.0.1/CS2/CS3 (2,9,16)
- Photoshop Elements (10)
- Pinnacle studio 11 Plus (2)
- Powerpoint to PDF (2)
- SpecViewperf 8.01 (5)
- Tar Archiving (14)
- Techgauge Image Suite (14)
- Videowave movie creator (16)
- Winzip 8.1 (16)
- xviD 1.13 (1,2)

Improvement (speed for speed) using quad core
Games
- Alan Wake
- Deep Fritz 10 Chess (2)
- Lost planet : Extreme condition (11,19)
- Splinter cell : Double Agent
- Supreme commander (2) - some reviews show no improvement
- Unreal Engine 3 e.g. Unreal tournament 2007 (13)
- Valve source engine (3)

- Hellgate : London?
- Assassin's creed?

Applications
- 3D Studio Max 7.0/8.0/9.0 (1,6,14)
- 7-Zip (14)
- Adobe Lightroom 1.2 (14)
- Adobe Premier 2.0 (2)
- After effects CS3 (13)
- AutoMKV (x264 Encoding (15)
- Cinebench 2003/9.5/10 (3,5,6,8,11,14,15,19)
- Cinema 4D release 10 (2)
- Divx 6.6/6.8 (optimized for quad-core) (1,2,13,15)
- Excel 2007 (11)
- Folding (16)
- GCC compiler (14)
- HDTV playback (with Power DVD 7.3) (2)
- Lightwave 3D 7.5 (5)
- Mainconcept H.264 Encoder (2,13)
- Nero Recode (6)
- Paint.NET x64 3.20 (15)
- picColor (8)
- Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.6 (4)
- POV-Ray (3,16)
- Quick Time Pro v7.0.4 (4)
- Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 8 (15)
- The Panaroma Factory (8)
- Valve particle benchmark (6)
- VirtualDub 1.7.6 (14)
- Windows Media Encoder (3,8,16,19)
- Wine Compile (GCC 4.1.1, i686) (6)
- Winrar 3.7 (11)
- Winrar 3.71 (2,15)
- XMpeg 5.0.3 (5)

- Any CPU benchmark software (obviously!) - e.g PCMark 2005 (1), Sisoft Sandra CPU test (1), 3Dmark

Sources
1) http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/extreme-fsb-2,1663.html
2) http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/dual-quad,1720-24.html
3) http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000942.html
4) http://www.techspot.com/review/36-intel-co...6600/page6.html
5) http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rid=134470
6) http://techgage.com/article/intel_core_2_quad_q6600/4
7) http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/q6600/11.htm
8) http://techreport.com/articles.x/12737/8
9) http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/463/5
10) http://www.trustedreviews.com/cpu-memory/r...-E6850-E6750/p7
11) http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=154933
12) http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/intel_...eview/page8.asp
13) http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/displ...00_5.html#sect0
14) http://techgage.com/article/intel_core_2_d...fdale_arrives/5
15) http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/04/0...400_and_e8200/4
16) http://techreport.com/articles.x/11160/5
17) http://www.tkarena.com/Articles/tabid/59/c...38/Default.aspx
18) http://www.guru3d.com/article/cpu-scaling-...re-processors/3

19) http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/intel_...eview/page4.asp

Others (to be updated):
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/multi-core-cpu,2280.html

CPU charts 2007 - Tomshardware

Here's a link to Tomshardware's CPU charts 2007 : Tomshardware CPU charts 2007
- you can choose the type of program to compare
- and select the CPU you want to compare with (add or remove a CPU)
- very good chart although limited programs/games available

Update : Tomshardware's CPU charts 2008 : http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/desktop...chmarks,31.html

Summary

Based on current environment, this is my humble opinion....

In reality, the quad-core is ahead of software development, especially in mainstream consumer applications and games. Many quad core owners may be under utilizing their quad core, which, if replaced with a similarly priced dual-core, would probably resulted in more advantages in every aspects of computing/gaming.

By the time software development catches up with current hardware (if it ever does but at least with multithreading), a new generation of quad-cores or even octa-cores might have been rolled out. At that time, the multi-cores would be in a better position to take advantage of multithreaded software/games as compared to now.

In conclusion, if you are contemplating quads but not really using multithreaded software/games, remember that a similarly-priced dual-core might be a better option.

All said, the final decision is still yours.... new dual-core or quad-core, your rig will rock!

CPU core temperature guide

kmarc — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:08:57 +0800

I've noticed a lot of forumers asking about CPU core temperature even though there are lots of information on the net. As such, I have decided to create a guide that explains the very basic of CPU core temperature.

This guide concentrates mainly on Intel CPU as that is what I'm using now.

Disclaimer:
1) This is only a simple guide to provide information in as simple a format as I can make it. Any loss of CPU is NOT MY FAULT!
2) I'm not in the computer field so correct me if any facts are wrong
3) All the facts are compiled from the internet and easily available if you search for it
4) Any advise/comments/corrections are most welcomed!
5) The guide is long-winded but in the hopes of making you understand what CPU temperature is all about

References for this guide are as below:
1) Core 2 Quad and Duo Temperature guide - the best guide ever (by Computronix)!
2) Good info on thermal management (Intel)
3) Intel Thermal & Mechanical design guidelines - for C2D/penryn (Intel)
4) Intel Thermal & Mechanical design guidelines - for quads (Intel)
5) Accurate temperature reading - the problems (Anandtech)
6) The truth about processor degradation (Anandtech)
7) Overclocking's impact of CPU's life (by Joe Citarella)

Useful info/help from our forumers:
1) cks2k2

Some programs that you can use to monitor your CPU temperature (you can google for the latest version):
1) Core Temp
2) Real Temp
3) Speedfan
4) Everest
5) Sisoft Sandra
6) Your own motherboard's monitoring software e.g. Easytune5, ITE smartguardian.....

Index
1) Basics of a CPU (the brains of your computer)
2) CPU temperature sensors
3) CPU temperature - which value is important?
4) CPU temperature - which one should you follow? TcaseMax or Tjunction?
4a) Newest update (August 2008) : Published Tjunction for 45nm procs by Intel!!!
5) Is there such a thing as safe/optimum temperature?
6) How to reduce my CPU temperature?
7) Summary

------------ 1) Basics of a CPU (the brains of your computer) ---------------

Note : The term CPU in this guide means the processor itself and NOT your whole computer

Understand the parts of a CPU:
1) Whole CPU
2) IHS (Integrated Heatspreader)
3) Core Die
4) Cores

This is a whole CPU : Intel E2160 (left), AMD64 X2 4200+ (right)

[attachmentid=434108]

Each CPU has an IHS on top of it. The IHS is the flat metal piece that has all the wordings written on it.

The picture below shows a pentium 3 without the IHS (left picture) and with the IHS (right picture).

[attachmentid=434111]

Function of IHS:
1) To evenly distribute the heat generated from the die/cores
2) Provide mechanical strength for the substrate (the substrate is quite thin and mechanically fragile)
3) Protect the die - from heavy heatsink that requires a lot of force to hold (Imagine a BIG HSF sitting on a naked chip... )

Note : Some extreme overclockers actually remove the IHS so that their heatsink can come directly in contact with the chip underneath. This usually results in a lower temperature which is the main aim.

Inside each CPU, is the die (or chip which contains all the silicon integrated circuit) - can be seen on the above left picture
The die lies on a "substrate", which makes up the whole chip (above picture, green color material)

See this picture of a dual-core for a clearer understanding.

[attachmentid=434123]

From the above picture, you can also see 2 cores (Core0 and Core1) and an "advanced smart cache" region. These all make up the die of the CPU.

Even wonder why people like to show this picture of a silicon wafer?

[attachmentid=434136]

Well, each small box region is actually a die/chip! And the diameter of the wafer is only 200mm (20cm) - usually used for chipsets. See how many chips can fit into one 200mm wafer..... You should see a 45nm process die with a 300mm wafer.... (Intel CPUs are from these)

Understand so far?

----------------- 2) CPU temperature sensors-------------------------

Current Intel CPUs has 2 thermal sensors on its CPU:

1) A on-die thermal diode - located within the CPU die between the cores
--- measures Tdiode (which is CPU temperature)
--- the converted digital values of Tdiode is calibrated in BIOS and displayed by temperature software
--- so, BIOS can affect the accuracy of Tdiode (so now you know why BIOS update causes different CPU temp readings!!)

2) A DTS (Digital Thermal Sensor) - located within each core
--- measures Tjunction (Tj) (which is core temperature)
--- the converted digital values are factory calibrated and displayed by temperature software
--- As such, BIOS does not affect the accuracy of Tjunction

Quote from Intel info : "In order to improve temperature reading, multiple sense points monitor different hot spots on the die and report the maximum temperature of the die. An independent temperature reading from each core is available, with optional reporting of the maximum temperature of the entire die, e.g., the highest temperature of both cores"

From what I can understand from the above, the Tdiode is measured from different places and not a single point. The maximum temperature of the die is then shown as the CPU temperature. No mention of the location of the DTS except that it is in each core......

Important :
Intel C2D, Pentium dual-core & Celeron dual-core all have both on-die thermal diode and DTS
Intel Quad (e.g. Q6600) and penryn CPUs e.g. (E8400, E8500) do not have an on-die thermal diode any more. They have been replaced by the DTS.

Example:
C2D Quad CPUs - has 4 Tjunction sensors
C2D Duo CPUs - has 1 Tcase and 2 Tjunction sensors

------------- 3) CPU temperature - which value is important? ---------------

So, in order to understand which value is important in a CPU, you have to understand a few variables that are set by Intel.

TcaseMax (TcMax)- This value stands for the maximum temperature measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor IHS (see picture below)
--- It is termed as "Thermal specification" in Intel's CPU spec sheet
--- It is NOT indicated by the on-die thermal sensor on the die
--- The temperature is designated as Tc

TjunctionMax - This value stands for the maximum temperature at the junction between the processor die and the PCB it sits on, this is usually much higher than the TCaseMax value.
--- It is the temperature of a CPU when throttling occurs
--- Throttling reduces the speed/frequency ™ or both the speed/frequency and voltage (TM2) of the CPU
--- As such, when throttling is activated, the CPU temperature should come down......
--- Important : As such, it is important to enable the "CPU Thermal Monitor 2 (TM2)" in BIOS if you are overclocking, just in case something happens and you forgot to look at the CPu temperature. It is a CPU overheating protection function.

Intel's definition of "thermal specification" - The thermal specification shown is the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor.

Left picture : The place where Tc is measured
Right picture : Intel's recommendation on how to measure Tc (you can refer to Intel Thermal & Mechanical design guidelines for further info)
[attachmentid=434858]

TCaseMax/Thermal specification
Why is this variable important? That's because Intel do published the maximum temperature a CPU can operate based on the TCaseMax.

See this example below:
[attachmentid=434873]

This data shows two steppings of Intel Q6600 - an older "B3" stepping and a newer "G0" stepping
If you look at their thermal specification:
B3 - 62.2'c
G0 - 71'c

For non-overclockers, they are very not important.
However, for overclockers, apparently, the higher the thermal specification, the better it is for overclocking.

These are a few advantages of having a higher thermal specification (which may include other factors like newer steppings/fixed bugs)
1) Uses less power and dissipate less heat
--- at idle (as it dissipate less heat at C1E state)
--- at load
--- when overclocked
2) Runs cooler due to the above
3) Better overclocking capabilities (in general) - as heat is the number 1 enemy for overclockers

You can read more about different stepping/thermal specification here:
Anandtech : Q6600 G0 vs B3

So now you know why everybody is scrambling for a Q6600 "G0" stepping....

Note : You can easily search for your own Intel's CPU information by googling this way "Q6600 sspec". The first result is usually the data sheet. So, if you have a E2160 L2 stepping, and you want to compare with E2160 M0 stepping, just google separately for "E2160 sspec L2" and "E2160 sspec M0".....

Tjunction/TjunctionMax
There is one important fact that needs understanding.
The DTS in each core:
- DO NOT give an actual temperature value e.g. 50'c (that means, it doesn't read your core temperature as 50'c)
- Gives a value relative to the Tjunction e.g. 35'c from Tjunction
- so basically what it does is "count down the margin to the core's maximum thermal limit. When this value reaches zero, the core temperature has reached its Tjunction set point" (Anandtech).
- so, when DTS gives a value of "zero", the core temperature has reached its TjunctionMax, resulting in CPU throttling...

For example, a DTS in an Intel Q6600 would give a value of 35 (NOT in Celcius/Fahrenheit, just a value) . So, if you know that the Tjunction of the Q6600, then you can easily calculate it's core temperature

- DTS reading : 35
- Tjunction of Q6600 : 100'c
- Actual core temperature : 100-35 = 65'c

Understand so far?

Now, the problem is, Intel DOES NOT supply the Tjunction value for their desktop CPUs!!!!!!!

QUOTE

Intel has never published Tjunction values for any CPU other than the mobile models. The reason for this is simple. Since mobile processors lack an integrated heat spreader (IHS), it is not possible to establish a thermal specification with respect to its maximum case temperature ("Tcase"), normally measured from an embedded probe located top, dead-center in the IHS (Anandtech)

QUOTE

More than a few programs have been released over the last few years, each claiming to accurately report these DTS values in real-time. The truth is that none can be fully trusted as the Tjunction values utilized in these transformations may not always be correct. Moreover, Intel representatives have informed us that these as-of-yet unpublished Tjunction values may actually vary from model to model - sometimes even between different steppings - and that the temperature response curves may not be entirely accurate across the whole reporting range. Since all of today's monitoring programs have come to incorrectly assume that Tjunction values are a function of the processor family/stepping only, we have no choice but to call everything we thought we had come to know into question. Until Intel decides to publish these values on a per-model basis, the best these DTS readings can do for us is give a relative indication of each core's remaining thermal margin, whatever that may be. (Anandtech)

The Tjunction value of each Intel processor is produced NOT by Intel, but an arbitrary value based on observations and measurements made by computer enthusiast.
These are a few estimated Tjunctions for some Intel CPUs:
- Q6600 G0 stepping - 100'c
- Q6600 B3 stepping - 85'c
- E6550, E6750, E6850 (All G0 steppings) - 100'c
- E2160 - 85'c

However, if you search on the net, there are always uncertainty regarding the Tjunction of a certain CPU, again, mainly because Intel doesn't provide that value for desktop CPUs.

Here's a good example of different software giving different Tjunctions for my Q6600. See the picture below

[attachmentid=437593]

Realtemp's Q6600 Tjunction is 95'c
Coretemp's Q6600 Tjunction is 100'c

Because of that, the temperature readings of realtemp is 5'c lower then coretemp's readings.

You can read more about it here : Accurate temperature reading - the problems (Anandtech)

Tjunction - is it correctly used in desktop CPUs?
For completeness sake, let me explain a bit regarding the term "Tjunction" which is incorrectly used. Below are extra info regarding Intel's definition of "Thermal specification":

QUOTE

Definition of thermal specification : The thermal specification shown is the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor (note - that means the TcaseMax). It is measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor integrated heat spreader. For processors without integrated heat spreaders such as mobile processors, the thermal specification is referred to as the junction temperature (Tj).

So, in summary, thermal specification for desktop CPU (with IHS) and mobile CPU (without IHS) is different.
- Desktop CPU : Thermal specification refers to the TCaseMax
- Mobile CPU : Thermal specification refers to the Tjunction

As such, stricly speaking, desktop CPUs core's maximum thermal limit is incorrectly termed as Tjunction, which is supposed to be used only in mobile CPUs WITHOUT the IHS.

However, since almost all users and software programmers uses the term for desktop CPUs, we will just have to follow......

-- 4) CPU temp - which one should you follow? TcaseMax or Tjunction? --

Not only can you use both, you actually have 3 options:
1) TCaseMax
2) Tjunction
3) Delta to Tjunction

However, you need to calibrate the TCaseMax and Tjunction so that it more accurately reflects the CPU temperature.
Remember that:
- the most accurate measurement of TCaseMax is putting a probe in the dead-centre top of the IHS (which we average users cannot do)
- the Tjunction is NOT an actual temperature value but a value to indicate how far it is from a specified maximum core temperature (Tjunction)
- calibration of TCaseMax and Tjunction using temperature softwares e.g. speedfan attempts to make it more accurate but by no means reflects true CPU core temperature
- "Delta to Tjunction" - Delta is a mathematical term to mean differences between 2 values.
--- For example, the delta of 2 temperatures e.g. 50'c and 58'c is 8'c.
--- So, "Delta to Tjunction" means how far it is from the maximum core temperature (Tjunction)

Understand so far?

TCaseMax calibrations
The method of calibration are summarized from this excellent guide : Core 2 Quad and Duo Temperature guide - the best guide ever (by Computronix)!

Note : I will summarized this part later on. In the meantime, please refer to the above link

Tjunction calibrations
The method of calibration are summarized from this excellent guide : Core 2 Quad and Duo Temperature guide - the best guide ever (by Computronix)!

Note : I will summarized this part later on. In the meantime, please refer to the above link.

Delta to Tjunction
This is the easiest. Just use Core Temp, go to Options>Settings, then check the "Show Delta to Tjunction Max temp." You will get readings like the picture below (my Q6600 at load).

Left picture showing the new settings, right picture without the settings.
[attachmentid=436016]

The readings are directly from the DTS, so it is the most accurate reading you can get.

So, what is an acceptable value for "Delta to Tjunction". Well, nobody knows!!! From observations of "safe" temperature and recommendations by certains enthusiast, the acceptable value seems to be ABOVE 20-25'c (Note the word ABOVE, NOT below 20-25'c)

So, if you look at my Q6600 "Delta to Tjunction", I'm quite far from my maximum core temperature, so I'm quite "safe".

Note : Alternatively, you can use realtemp, which shows you the "Distance to TJMax" which has the same functions.

4a) Newest update (August 2008) : Published Tjunction for 45nm procs by Intel!!!
Looks like Intel finally published the Tjunction for desktop processors, although it is only for 45nm procs.

Here's the published Tjunctions:

The Tjunctions for the 45nm procs are out!

45nm Desktop Dual-Core Processors
Intel Core 2 Duo processor E8000 and E7000 series - 100°C

45 nm Desktop Quad-Core Processors
Intel Core 2 Quad processor Q9000 and Q8000 series - 100°C
Intel Core 2 Extreme processor QX9650 - 95°C
Intel Core 2 Extreme processor QX9770 - 85°C

Link : http://intel.wingateweb.com/US08/published...MTS001_100r.pdf

From the datasheet, it looks like Intel is planning to design a temperature sensor that outputs the temperature in degrees celcius! This would really help to reduce headaches in monitoring the core temperatures!

--------- 5) Is there such a thing as safe/optimum temperature? ----------

Note : If you're not an overclocker, then this question is not really important.

Most people will ask "What is a safe temperature to run my overclocked CPU?"

Well, there is actually no straight forward answer to this.

The "answer" depends on various factors such as:
1) Type of CPU
2) Maximum temperature
3) Duration of high temperature @ How you run your rig/CPU e.g. a few hours a day @ never switched off.....

Type of CPU
This is obvious as different CPU would have different thermal specification.

For example, take a Q6600's thermal specification (TcaseMax):
Q6600 B3 stepping: 62.2'c
Q6600 GO stepping: 71'c

Obviously, if both processors were running at a TcaseMax of 60'c, definitely the B3 will be the more "tortured" of the two CPUs!

And I guess it would be also true for mobile & server CPUs which are more reliable and can take higher temperatures....

Maximum temperature
Unfortunately, there is no absolute value for a safe temperature.
--- some would recommend 60-65'c
--- some would say 50-55'c
--- and some would run their procs at 70'c without any short-term problems

Just remember this : Heat is the number one enemy for your overclocked CPU (voltages comes in 2nd.....)

The higher the core temperature:
- the higher the risk of damage
- the shorter the life expectancy

Note : Remember that the lifespan of a CPU can be very long..... usually >10 years? >50 years?

In general, for current Intel processors, the recommendation is around 60-65'c

Very good in-depth explanation here :
The truth about processor degradation (Anandtech)
Overclocking's impact of CPU's life - by Joe Citarella

Duration of high temperature
Running your CPU at a high temperature for a few hours would definitely be better than running it 24/7

------------------ 6) How to reduce my CPU temperature? -------------------

Can be divided into different components:
1) Casing
2) Cooling (e.g. air, water, more extreme)
3) Air cooling - the fan setup
4) Thermal paste
5) CPU
6) Ambient temperature
7) Power saving methods
8) Overclocking/overvolting

Casing
> Have a good airflow in your casing
--- there are many guides on how to do this, which includes cable management, strategic placements of intake and outlet fans, no dust build-up in the casing or on the heatsink

> Open your side casing panel
--- also be wary of dust buildup with this setup

> Alternatively, you can run naked (no, not you la.... your computer... )
--- if you run your rig without a casing, there won't be any heat build-up that normally occurs in a closed-case system
--- be wary of dust buildup with this setup

Cooling
> Don't use stock CPU Heatsink fan (HSF)
--- use a good 3rd party coolers (e.g. air-cooling, water-cooling or more extreme)

> Ensure your HSF is seated properly
--- sometimes, your HSF is not in proper contact with the CPU (this can happen if you use push-pins to secure your HSF to your CPU)
--- if you have a 3rd party HSF that has push-pins and also screw kit, use the screw kit, as it ensures better contact

Air cooling - the fan setup
Single fan - for maximum cooling, you can:
- Set the CPU fan speed to run at maximum.
- Change to a more powerful fan (usually measured in "cfm", the higher the cfm, the better it is)
- Use a larger size fan e.g. from 8cm to 12cm

Multiple fans - for certain HSF, you can actually put 2 fans, or even 3 fans.
- one fan to blow on the HSF, one fan to suck out the air from the HSF

Thermal paste
Don't use the normal thermal paste that comes with the stock HSF (they are good but not as good as well-known ones)
Use good thermal paste e.g. Arctic Cooling MX-1 or MX-2, Tuniq TX-2
Currently, the best is Shin-Etsu, which is unfortunately not available here

CPU
> Lap your CPU or HSF
--- this will increase the surface contact between the CPU and HSF
--- lapping the CPU will void the CPU warranty.....

> Remove the IHS - not for the average users, more for extreme overclockers (as removing the IHS will void the warranty)
--- By removing the IHS, the CPU heatsink and come in direct contact with the CPU die/chip. This will cause a significant drop in core temperature....

Ambient temperature
Note : Ambient temperature means the general temperature at your location e.g. room, office, etc....
Lower your ambient temperature e.g. in air-con room

Power saving methods
Activate power management functions
--- for Intel CPUs, enable C1E and EIST function in BIOS
--- for AMD CPUs, enable Cool&Quiet function in BIOS

Overclocking/overvolting
As you know, the higher you overclock/overvolt, the more the heat is generated. Hence, the higher the CPU temperature.

Lower overvolting
--- remember the phrase "The point of diminishing returns"
--- This means that when you overclock and overvolt your CPU, there comes a point where you need to increase your vcore by a huge amount but only gain a few mhz in the process
--- for example, this is the results of an overclocked Q6600
----- vcore ----- overclocked speed
----- 1.30v ----- 3.0 Ghz
----- 1.35v ----- 3.3 Ghz
----- 1.40v ----- 3.4 Ghz
----- 1.45v ----- 3.43 Ghz
----- 1.50v ----- 3.44 Ghz
--- if you look at the example above, the point of diminishing return is around 1.40-1.45v, where increasing your vcore from 1.40v to 1.45v only gain you 30mhz (3.43Ghz - 3.40Ghz = 30mhz). In addition, increasing from 1.45v to 1.50v only gain you 10mhz (3.44Ghz - 3.43Ghz = 10mhz)
--- So, instead of running 1.50v at 3.44Ghz, you could run your CPU at 1.40v at 3.4Ghz, which would help to reduce your core temperature by a significant amount.....

---------------- 7) Summary -------------------

1) Heat is the number 1 enemy for your CPU. The cooler your CPU runs, the better it is

2) Software monitoring of the actual CPU temperature is not entirely correct.
--- This applies to ANY software available including popular softwares e.g. core temp, speedfan, etc

3) Delta to TjunctionMax (Distance to maximum core temperature)
--- Is the most accurate indication of your CPU's relative temperature
--- It is accurate as it obtains the readings directly from the DTS
--- It is NOT an absolute temperature reading (rather, it indicates how far away the temperature is, from maximum core temperature

4) TjunctionMax
--- Nobody knows the actual value of TjunctionMax (as Intel does not release the value)
--- Intel only releases the "Thermal specification" to indicate TcaseMax (not easy to measure)

5) There is no such thing as a safe temperature for your CPU
--- As it depends on various factors (as stated above)
--- Again, the cooler it is, the better.
--- In general, most enthusiast will recommend not exceeding 60-65'c

6) If you really really REALLY want the most accurate temperature reading, then follow the guide on how to place a temperature sensor on top of your CPU
--- To measure Tcase
--- Intel has a guide to this but it is not easy (involves making a groove in your IHS)

9900GTX / 9900GX2 is coming!

kmarc — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 11:10:38 +0800

Looks like Nvidia is planning to release newer cards using the G92 GPU but with 55nm process....

Slated to be release in July 2008.... no new features though....

[attachmentid=431321]

Source : http://www.generation-3d.com/3DMarK-2006-2...-GTX,ac8324.htm

Source (english) :
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display...ds_in_July.html
http://en.expreview.com/2008/03/31/gt200-t...te-set-to-july/
http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/NVIDIA_GT2...In_Q3/5684.html
http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7578.html

S3 low-cost DX10 graphic card

kmarc — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:50:19 +0800

I find this interesting as I'm building my multimedia PC....

Low-cost GC that supports native HDMI!!! Supposedly able to run full HD (1080p) on LCDs!!!

http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/25/s3_..._graphics_card/

Guide - Understanding your computer

kmarc — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:40:00 +0800

Guide to understanding your computer with regards to overclocking

My rig is down so I have some free time on my hands...... :-)

Note
1) My aim is to explain the complexity of a computer as simple as possible in simple English.
2) This guide is mainly in relation to overclocking.
3) I have no technical/electrical/computer training and I am not in any of these fields. Hence it is possible that my explanations may not be entirely correct (like a blind rat leading another!!! So, read at your own risk!!)
4) Any corrections/recommendations/advice are welcome (you can pm me)
5) I'm using Intel CPU Quad and gigabyte P35 motherboard as examples as I only have these parts

Index:
1) Part 1 : The basics
2) Part 2 : Those pesky BIOS settings that nobody understands....
3) Part 3 : In-depth explanation of essential BIOS settings

-------------------- Part 1 : The basics -----------------------
Make sure you know each of the important parts in a computer (see picture)

[attachmentid=399396]

CPU - the brains of your computer
-Note : CPU is also used loosely to mean your whole computer including the casing (so don't get confused!)
- 2 major CPU giants are Intel and AMD

RAMs - the memory of your computer
Many types of desktop rams (from newest type):
- DDR3 rams (still expensive)
- DDR2 rams (currently the most used)
- DDR rams (going out of phase)
- SDrams (eh, still using it? )

Graphic card - For display
Connects to many types of slots/interface
- PCI-E x16 slot (currently the best)
- AGP (older, going out of phase)
- PCI (eh, still available? )

Northbridge (NB) chipset
- act as a "bridge"
- important to connect and manage information between 4 parts of the computer - CPU, RAM, Graphic card and Southbridge
- also known as MCH (Memory Controller Hub) or GMCH (Graphics and MCH)
- examples of northbridge chipsets are P35, G33, nvidia 680 (other examples......)

In overclocking, the NB is a very important component. Hence, overclockers usually replace the stock heatsink with a better one.

Southbridge (NB)
- also act as a "bridge"
- important to connect and manage information from PCI cards, PCI-E x1, USB, Hard disk (SATA, IDE), Audio chipset, LAN chipset, SMBUS, etc....
- the southbridge communicates with the northbridge through the DMI (Direct Media Interface)
- examples of southbridge chipsets are ICH9, ICH8, etc....

Note : How to identify your NB/SB? In modern motherboards, the NB has a larger heatsink compared to the SB.
Note x2 : AMD rigs doesn't have a NB (explain later....)

Front side bus (FSB) - also known as Host/processor/system bus
- the bus that connects the CPU and the northbridge
- the speed for the FSB can run at either 200/266/333 Mhz
- However, because each clock cycle can have 4 transfers, the resulting speed can be:
--- 800 MT/s (200mhz x 4 transfers)
--- 1066 MT/s (266mhz x 4 transfers)
--- 1333 MT/s (333mhz x 4 transfers)

- MT/s = Megatransfers for second (and because it is per second, it can be quoted in mhz!)
- Intel term this technique of 4 transfers per clock tick as "Quad Pumping"

Relations of the FSB to CPU speed
- The CPU speed is determined by 2 factors : FSB and CPU multiplier
- For example:
--- The Q6600 runs at 266mhz FSB x 9 CPU multiplier = 266 x 9 = 2.4Ghz
--- The E6750 runs at 333mhz FSB x 8 CPU multiplier = 333 x 8 = 2.66Ghz

- In overclocking, you can increase the CPU speed by either increasing the FSB or CPU multiplier
--- However, normal CPUs have their CPU multiplier "locked" at a certain limit e.g. Q6600 max at 9x, E6750 max at 8x
--- Due to this, increasing the FSB is the main method of overclocking
--- This does not apply to expensive extreme version of CPUs where their CPU multiplier are "unlocked"

Relations of the FSB to DDR2 rams
- Similarly, the DDR2 RAM speed is determined by 2 factors : FSB and RAM multiplier
- For example:
--- A DDR2-800 ram runs at 266mhz FSB x 3.0 RAM multiplier = 800mhz
--- It can also run at 333mhz FSB x 2.4 RAM multipler = 800mhz

Note : Just received my DFI Blood Iron motherboard..... will include the options of the RAMs in BIOS later.....
- In addition, DDR2 RAMs are capable of 2 transfers per clock cycle (hence the word "Double Data Rate (DDR))

Effect of increasing the FSB speed in overclocking
- So, as you will now realize, when you increase the FSB speed:
1) The communication between the CPU and NB is faster (which is an advantage! )
2) Your CPU AND your RAM speed will also increase
3) Your northbridge has to work harder (hence more power consumption and heat generation) - that's why overclockers uses good 3rd-party NB coolers!!!

Here's a diagram of how these components are connected

[attachmentid=399398]

If there is a FRONT side bus (FSB), is there such a thing as BACK side bus (BSB)???
- As a matter of fact, there is!!!!
- However, for modern PCs, you don't have to worry about this
- For completeness sake, the BSB is a computer bus used to connect the CPU to the CPU cache memory, usually L2.
- CPUs that have a back side ( ) includes IBM PowerPC and Intel Pentium Pro.....

--------------------- Part 2 : Those pesky BIOS settings that nobody understands.... --------------------
Disclaimer : I don't pretend I understand what I'm about to describe. What I have researched over the net, I'm just summarizing and making it easy to understand.
Voltage references mainly for P35 chipset.
So, examples of the dreaded settings are:
Voltages
- vMCH
- vFSB
- SB voltage
- NB core voltage
- CPU PLL voltage
- Clockgen voltage
- CPU GTL 0/2 Ref voltage (@ A/GTL ratio)
- CPU GTL 1/3 Ref voltage
- NB GTL ref voltage
- VTT FSB voltage @ FSB termination voltage
Others
- CPU voltage damper
- Loadline calibration

vMCH = Northbridge voltage
Default voltage : 1.3-1.4v (depends on your mobo)
Plays a critical role in overclocking. Important to maintain stability.
Higher voltage helps in overclocking the FSB @ making your rams run stable (if you're running 4 sticks of ram)

Important : Use active cooling on the NB. Advisable to have NB temperature less than 45'c to ensure stability

vFSB = VTT (termination voltage) = FSB termination voltage
Default voltage : 1.2V

Helps when at high FSB speeds

SB I/O Power = Southbridge voltage
Default voltage : 1.5V (for the ICH9R chipset)

Previously ignored during overclocking, however, increasing the voltage may sometimes improve the stability between NB and SB, and may help overclocking.

To be continued....

While the brute force approach will satisfy some users, those looking for a maximum stable overclock with the minimum amount of voltages will find GTL tuning a necessity.

vMCH = NB voltage = 1.4v default
vFSB = FSB termination voltage = VTT (Termination voltage) = 1.2v default
NB GTL ref voltage =

Coming up
In-depth explanation of essential BIOS settings

Basic
- Know that computers operate on a binary system, where information is communicated using "One"s and "Zero"s. e.g 010010111010000101111
- This is called binary logic or digital logic, where "1" represents the ON state and "0" represents the OFF state
- The ON and OFF state are achieved by using voltage levels know as logic levels (which commonly involves a range of voltage e.g. 0v and 5v)
- For example:
--- Anything between 3.5v-5.0v results in an ON state (or "ONE" @ 1)
--- Anything between 0v-1.5v results in an OFF state (or "ZERO" @ 0)
- If you understand the above, you will understand that to send some signals like "101" will involve changes in voltages like 4.0v then 0.8v then 4.2v.......

Follow so far?

Ok, now, know that the Front Side Bus (FSB) uses this type of signalling technology, the most advance up to now is the "Gunning Transceiver Logic (GTL)" which is superior to older signalling technology like CMOS, TTL, etc.
- Most Intel processor FSB signals use [Advanced] GTL (A/GTL)

Aha! So, this is the culprit GTL in the BIOS settings....... Interested? Read on....